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Talk:Astarion/Romance: Difference between revisions
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::::: ''"Successful check will reveal that as Ascendant, he considers even his beloved one belonging to the lower order of creatures and shall ever treat them accordingly"''The "Are there any other dialogue options" relate to the line where you state that he expresses his new found permissiveness (Permissiveness is not used to describe oneself. If he is expressing permissiveness then he is telling Tav "Go ahead, do what you want, its all cool" (I actually agree with the usage in this case but I suspect it is not how you intend the sentence to read). ''" Astarion answers 'there are no vampires like me and never will be again'." -'' He is the vampire ascendant. There are no others like him. He is not expecting the ritual to ever be completed again. ''"he says they will never find anyone other like him"'' This is during a breakup line. If the listener interprets it to mean Astarion views everyone as lower than him then that is the subjective interpretation of the listener. It is basically "Go ahead, leave me, you will never have anyone as good as me" and this is rarely taken to mean that the person thinks everyone else is beneath them. "''Spawn-Tav's lines in the epilogue show that they ...''" No, it does not suit me better. If you are to use this here, then it applies to every time in the game where the dialogue option to express a fully supportive view applies. Tav has the option in every dialogue choice to be fully on board with any companion. This is not acquienscence or sycophancy. It is an RP option. Whether Tav is unable to think for themselves is entirely on the Player and how they wish to RP the scenario. Much as the dialogue in the epilogue RomanceFates scene - or in any dialogue. Tav can choose the options that suit the players RP. Be that supportive, gaslighting, aggressive, sad, rude and so on. ''"He actually says that he could have forced Tav into becoming a spawn"'' This is factually true. He is a vampire. He could have turned Tav forcefully if he wished. The PC could have woken up as a surprise vampire if they refused him on Ascension camp night. ''"for all his obvious arrogance and probable cruelty"'' He is arrogant, he was always arrogant. Probable cruelty is entirely a subjective opinion which can be inferred at a stretch by selecting specific dialogue options within the game. It can equally be argued that it is Tav who does cruelty to any companion. The inference that a Tav who is supportive and on-board with Ascended version must have lost their ability to critically think about their relations is just not an objective view. There are those who could more reasonably argue that letting a vampire drink from you when you just met them displays an inability to critically think. " ''have several fully-finished walkthroughs with all possible outcomes of relations with most companions''" That is good. I have over 10 fully finished walkthroughs with all possible outcomes of the relationship with Astarion. I have several others with different companions. I have the debug book mod for running through every possible romance flag in the game and every possible dialogue, I have the dialogue files and scene direction lsf files. This is not a "I have run this game more than you have" competition. | ::::: ''"Successful check will reveal that as Ascendant, he considers even his beloved one belonging to the lower order of creatures and shall ever treat them accordingly"''The "Are there any other dialogue options" relate to the line where you state that he expresses his new found permissiveness (Permissiveness is not used to describe oneself. If he is expressing permissiveness then he is telling Tav "Go ahead, do what you want, its all cool" (I actually agree with the usage in this case but I suspect it is not how you intend the sentence to read). ''" Astarion answers 'there are no vampires like me and never will be again'." -'' He is the vampire ascendant. There are no others like him. He is not expecting the ritual to ever be completed again. ''"he says they will never find anyone other like him"'' This is during a breakup line. If the listener interprets it to mean Astarion views everyone as lower than him then that is the subjective interpretation of the listener. It is basically "Go ahead, leave me, you will never have anyone as good as me" and this is rarely taken to mean that the person thinks everyone else is beneath them. "''Spawn-Tav's lines in the epilogue show that they ...''" No, it does not suit me better. If you are to use this here, then it applies to every time in the game where the dialogue option to express a fully supportive view applies. Tav has the option in every dialogue choice to be fully on board with any companion. This is not acquienscence or sycophancy. It is an RP option. Whether Tav is unable to think for themselves is entirely on the Player and how they wish to RP the scenario. Much as the dialogue in the epilogue RomanceFates scene - or in any dialogue. Tav can choose the options that suit the players RP. Be that supportive, gaslighting, aggressive, sad, rude and so on. ''"He actually says that he could have forced Tav into becoming a spawn"'' This is factually true. He is a vampire. He could have turned Tav forcefully if he wished. The PC could have woken up as a surprise vampire if they refused him on Ascension camp night. ''"for all his obvious arrogance and probable cruelty"'' He is arrogant, he was always arrogant. Probable cruelty is entirely a subjective opinion which can be inferred at a stretch by selecting specific dialogue options within the game. It can equally be argued that it is Tav who does cruelty to any companion. The inference that a Tav who is supportive and on-board with Ascended version must have lost their ability to critically think about their relations is just not an objective view. There are those who could more reasonably argue that letting a vampire drink from you when you just met them displays an inability to critically think. " ''have several fully-finished walkthroughs with all possible outcomes of relations with most companions''" That is good. I have over 10 fully finished walkthroughs with all possible outcomes of the relationship with Astarion. I have several others with different companions. I have the debug book mod for running through every possible romance flag in the game and every possible dialogue, I have the dialogue files and scene direction lsf files. This is not a "I have run this game more than you have" competition. | ||
::::"''I hope you're contented. Hate to waste words on obvious things, really, especially to those who 'just came across', but now have at once a billion of precise questions that give away their pretendedness''" I have billions of precise questions because I have the ability to read text and relate it to lines I have seen in game. Perhaps you would prefer if I go through the entire article line by line for you, starting with your assertion that Astarion is the only character who actively seeks to start romantic relations? I can do that. It might require a lot more space than these replies allow [[User:Telchin|Telchin]] ([[User talk:Telchin|talk]]) 10:16, 19 July 2024 (CEST) | ::::"''I hope you're contented. Hate to waste words on obvious things, really, especially to those who 'just came across', but now have at once a billion of precise questions that give away their pretendedness''" I have billions of precise questions because I have the ability to read text and relate it to lines I have seen in game. Perhaps you would prefer if I go through the entire article line by line for you, starting with your assertion that Astarion is the only character who actively seeks to start romantic relations? I can do that. It might require a lot more space than these replies allow [[User:Telchin|Telchin]] ([[User talk:Telchin|talk]]) 10:16, 19 July 2024 (CEST) | ||
:::::We're talking here about not even an article, but about certain part of article. So, instead of mutual accusations and, excuse me for rudeness, bouts of d**k-measuring, why don't we just rethink it over to be consistent, structured, detailed, and neutral as much as possible (because as we all are living people, we just aren't able not to process this through ourselves). | |||
:::::Ready? Set? Go. | |||
:::::*First of all, are you content with the current article structure? I.e. Act # -> Episodes that have impact on relations/romantic line -> Possible choices and consequences (with subdivisions) -> describing exceptions and instances -> any proof quotes go to footnotes (as they are clogging the text). Note that we cannot totally avoid describing personality features of the NPC in question here, and their changing, too, as it is the base and crux of his in-game behaviour. My initial outburst was addressed to deleting that meticulously built article structure, not to using precise quotes and opinions, whatever. Opinions differ. | |||
:::::*Secondly, if you really want to achieve the positive result, let us start a Sandbox (here or elsewhere) and check out point by point, starting with the structure itself and then clarifying formulations and picking the most correct words - together - to come as close to perfection as possible. Truth is born in arguments, but there's much more sense in working it out, not argue in vain, poking fingers in one another. IDK if sandboxes here allow submits from other contributors (if yes, I already have a sandbox page), but there's tons of other resources available, f.e. Google Docs. | |||
:::::*Thirdly, please do not seek counterarguments about the certain-episode NPC interactions through the massive of all possible in-game dialogues, including those without his participation. Broad and sweeping generalizations are never good. As I can see, we are actually striving over a tiny piece of a huge cake. Whether there are any other possible player-character reactions in other episodes, acts and scenes, matters not. | |||
:::::*Lastly, proofs must be mutually substantial. I posted quotes, while you, for some reasons, didn't 'counter-quote' while stating you have access to the dialogue files (I do, too). Let's speak of precise dialogue nodes, not act as poor dying Padme, like ''There's good in him. I know, there is still'' | |||
:::::[[User:Arikel|Arikel]] ([[User talk:Arikel|talk]]) 12:50, 19 July 2024 (CEST) | |||