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bg3wiki talk:Ads Announcement 1: Difference between revisions
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:[[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 21:46, 20 July 2024 (CEST) | :[[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 21:46, 20 July 2024 (CEST) | ||
::Thank you for the reply. I do not consent to relicensing my content. | |||
::[[User:Kelpto|Kelpto]] ([[User talk:Kelpto|talk]]) 21:14, 22 August 2024 (CEST) | |||
== "I can make a lot of money off of ads" is a terrible premise to break a promise == | == "I can make a lot of money off of ads" is a terrible premise to break a promise == | ||
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:[[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 12:40, 21 July 2024 (CEST) | :[[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 12:40, 21 July 2024 (CEST) | ||
::The point is not that donations will be refunded, the point is that you do not need to serve ads to cover the cost of hosting this wiki. Those costs are already covered by donations. You have made it very clear that the only reason you want to put ads on this wiki is so you can apparently make a lot of money off of them. I maintain that this is a terrible (and incredibly unrealistic) reason to break the promise you made years ago of keeping the wiki ad free: | |||
::https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/86980/baldurs-gate-3-wiki | |||
::https://www.polygon.com/23871726/baldurs-gate-3-bg3-fan-wiki-fextralife | |||
::https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/rtielk/announcing_unofficial_bg3_community_wiki/ | |||
::"Essentially, if you add something to their wiki, you're doing unpaid work for their company. Not to be a hater, but I dislike that." | |||
::So now, essentially, if people add something to this wiki, they're doing unpaid work for you. You are in the process of becoming the very thing you created this wiki to get away from. It makes you untrustworthy and it makes you a hypocrite. | |||
::"Projections show that I will be able to make enough money" ... "The company which contacted me regarding ads is a fairly reputable one" ... "I've verified that their projections are credible by checking with numerous other sources" | |||
::Projections from who? Which company is it? What are the numbers they're throwing at you? What sources did you apparently verify these numbers with? Why is none of this information front and center in your proposal? This is incredibly important information. You should have shared these details from the very beginning. | |||
::From what platform will the ads be served? Google AdSense? What type of ads, exactly, will be displayed? Where exactly will they be displayed? Will they merely be pushed off into the sidebar of the page? Will there only be a single ad? Will they be injected into the content of the site directly? Will they be static ads? Interactive? Videos? Again, all of this information should have been made available day one. | |||
::If you actually enjoy systems administration so much, go make a career out of that. Don't ruin this wiki and your own reputation by going through with this plan. I seriously doubt whatever "projections" for ad revenue have been shared with you are realistic. This game's release date was a year ago, it's daily active player count is now one tenth of what it was at its peak, and the game is about to receive its last major patch. I promise you whatever "projections" you have been given are the absolute peak of what you will "earn" by placing ads on this wiki. | |||
::You clearly understand how and why ads are terrible and how and why they ruin sites that should be for communities. Are you actually willing to throw away your own morals for what will inevitably be a disappointing paycheck? | |||
::My ultimate advice, if you are so seriously concerned with making money off of this wiki, is to reach out to Larian directly and ask for a job. You're currently unemployed. You have been hosting this wiki for years now. This wiki has been a great community resources. You have demonstrated that you have the skills and knowledge necessary to deploy, host, administrate, and moderate this wiki. Ask them for a job and see what they say. | |||
::If Larian is not interested in hiring you then, and only then, should you even begin to consider placing ads on this wiki to support yourself financially, and only for as long as necessary until you find an actual job. You should absolutely not try to turn hosting this wiki into your career. That is a terrible and unsustainable idea. | |||
::I will not log back into my account on this wiki or contribute to it any further until this matter is resolved. [[Special:Contributions/98.199.7.246|98.199.7.246]] 06:23, 25 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
:::This is a bit long and asking too many detailed questions (not to mention the tone is way off) but there will be another announcement soon that may answer some of the questions anyway. [[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 10:46, 29 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
== Consent Given == | == Consent Given == | ||
| Line 76: | Line 93: | ||
== Let the enshittification begin == | == Let the enshittification begin == | ||
Your site beats | Your site beats fextralife's site by a mile and more. It's an example that shows that monetization is harmful to a collaborative project than when the content is given freely and voluntarily. | ||
Sure, no one likes to work for free, but paying past contributors feels like you are actually trying to bribe them to further your own agenda of monetization. You euphemistically admit to your own greed. | Sure, no one likes to work for free, but paying past contributors feels like you are actually trying to bribe them to further your own agenda of monetization. You euphemistically admit to your own greed. | ||
I advise you not to follow this dark path or, like the | I advise you not to follow this dark path or, like the fextralife wiki, you will be replaced. [[Special:Contributions/91.184.167.72|91.184.167.72]] 09:53, 24 July 2024 (CEST) | ||
:Me when I make money: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/7/7f/Emperor_Palpatine_TNsR.jpg [[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 17:16, 24 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
::This feels very dismissive of this poster's very valid concerns. [[User:Schism|Schism]] ([[User talk:Schism|talk]]) 07:39, 29 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
:::I don't think accusations like "you're just trying to bribe people" and "you admit to your own greed" can be classed as valid concerns. I'm not a politician, or doing company PR... I've tried to be as open and honest as I can, and anonymous comments who still jump to bad faith assumptions like the one above are just really annoying me, sorry. | |||
:::<br> | |||
:::The plan is to redistribute the majority of the funds, paying almost 120 people (you're one of them), if revenue is high enough. New announcement probably coming later today. I just can't promise anything yet since I've no clue how much money will really come in. | |||
:::<br> | |||
:::Here's what I'd actually do if I were greedy: Plaster the site with ads, easily making tens of thousands per month (yes, check the Google AdSense revenue calculator; the site has 40 Million page views per month and the calculator literally caps out at 10 Million), and I'd just pocket all that money. Would be perfectly legal by the looks of it (other BY-NC-SA wikis do it), and it would take a long time for a new wiki to get higher Google rankings so I'd be getting mad rich. But I'm not going to do it, and have instead been agonizing this whole time over how to fairly pay so many people around the globe and with vastly different levels and types of contribution to the wiki. | |||
:::<br> | |||
:::Sorry, this became a bit of a rant. It's just really frustrating when you're doing your best to stick to principles, and genuinely try to make sure everyone is happy and treated fairly, and some people still jump on you with accusations, you know? Happy to respond to people who have actually contributed and have genuine concerns. Hope this didn't come across too salty. [[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 09:40, 29 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
::::It is a perfectly valid concern when what you do to refute it is post a meme and don't actually try to alleviate their concerns. This just increases their concerns. That can be how you feel on the inside, but it doesn't instill confidence. They're saying everything most others are saying, just in a more polite way. | |||
::::In the thread we made where you answered some of my concerns, you said you've been running the site like a High-Grade professional, this kind of stuff DIRECTLY contradicts your words and make what you say less reliable. Accusations or not, you are suggesting you make this site your full time job, and the moment you said that, you set a bar for yourself, and that one response is NOT making us feel great about this. A "High-Grade" Professional doesn't respond to criticism, incorrect or not, '''with a meme.''' [[User:Schism|Schism]] ([[User talk:Schism|talk]]) 17:15, 29 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
:::::Sorry, professional sysadmin doesn't mean professional PR. I don't really know how to respond to someone who just throws accusations at me like this and talks like it's going to be the end of the wiki, when you can just create an account or use an ad-blocker and the wiki is going to look basically 100% the same as before. (Tip for Android users: Firefox on Android supports uBlock Origin.) [[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 17:56, 29 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
::::::That's the thing. You could have answered it plainly like that, instead of being incredibly dismissive about it, and making yourself look like the worse out of the two. | |||
::::::At this point, this is less of a "moral" thing we're talking about, it's image. If you want people agreeing to this, you can't stoop down to the level of people you believe are being unreasonable. Unreasonable + Unreasonable =/= Unreasonable [[User:Schism|Schism]] ([[User talk:Schism|talk]]) 00:19, 30 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
== Disappointed and alarmed == | |||
Your latest update says you will not be removing content that is requested to be removed immediately, which I assume means you will be making money off content that contributors specifically didn’t want monetized. That’s extremely unsettling and sets a horrible precedent for wikis going forward. Why is making money off ads more important than the wishes of your contributors to not be part of your monetization plans? And how long are you planing on keeping this content up? A day? A week? A year??? Depending on how long you intend to keep this up, you may make more money with ads off of content explicitly asked to be removed than whatever you are paying the contributors. [[Special:Contributions/181.215.169.201|181.215.169.201]] 16:07, 24 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
:Are you a contributor to the wiki? If not, please cease the panicked alarmism. Content will not be mass-deleted in a hurry, since this could harm the integrity of information on the wiki. If you are a contributor and have concerns, I will gladly listen. [[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 17:33, 24 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
::Again, how long? Regardless if I am a contributor or not, you have been so open and transparent so far, why not with this? | |||
::Will contributors work that does not want to be monetized be kept during the time monetization goes up? Why are you taking away their choice from them when their content comes down, content that they made but you want to make money off of? [[Special:Contributions/181.215.169.201|181.215.169.201]] 18:39, 24 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
:::If someone who actually contributed to the wiki asked me that question, they would be entitled to a response. You aren't. You just come across like a troll. The answer would depend on the amount and nature of their contributions, and a few other factors, which is why it's not possible to provide a blanket statement. If you have more questions, feel free to ask ''politely'' and I'll gladly respond. Otherwise, I'll have to ignore you. [[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 20:20, 24 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
I believe that monetizing the wiki is a bad idea. You've obviously already made up your mind, so I won't bother rehashing the points that other people have made. | |||
I do not consent to having my contributions re-licensed, and have already removed the only notable contribution I made. [[User:Paradoxiii|Paradoxiii]] ([[User talk:Paradoxiii|talk]]) 21:06, 26 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
== Why not set up a Patreon or make Kofi more accessible? == | |||
Avoids ads while allowing you to gain an income for hosting and stuff. While I don't know about trust (I'm very generously assuming this is just about hosting fees, even though I personally don't believe it), I still think there's better ways to gain some form of compensation to achieve said goal. I personally don't want someone suddenly making money off of things I've contributed to the site, especially when previously this was not the case. We also have no way of trusting you'll "pay" people to compensate. Overall, this feel very kneejerk. A Patreon would work better, and would feel much more "moral" than putting up ads. [[User:Schism|Schism]] ([[User talk:Schism|talk]]) 07:26, 29 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
:Too add onto this, past contributors literally did not ask to be paid for their efforts, and did this because they wanted to. I know I did. You're not introducing the idea that past contributors would be paid, which could then create a divide between past contributors and future contributors. This all-around feels like a terrible idea that could, again, be fixed simply by making a Kofi more accessible, or creating a Patreon, which are much less intrusive methods, and I believe you should attempt before trying to go fully into ads. [[User:Schism|Schism]] ([[User talk:Schism|talk]]) 07:42, 29 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
::No, it's not about hosting fees. Those are very small compared to what ads could make. It's mainly about 1. me working on the wiki full-time going forth and being paid a proper salary for it, and 2. fair compensation for those who contributed in the past because the wiki wouldn't be where it is now without them. | |||
::<br> | |||
::We took Ko-Fi donations to cover the hosting fees for 2024, and already reached the goal a while ago, since it was just 600 bucks for 12 months. Those will be refunded if this goal pans out. Some may be surprised to hear the wiki only costs 50 bucks a month and serves millions of people with good performance. Other wiki admins have told me this is "seriously impressive." I think I tend to under-value my own work. I've already been running the site like a fairly high-grade professional the whole time, but didn't ask for anything because it's still a community effort in the end of the day. Being able to do this full-time would be really nice though. I'll be improving MediaWiki extensions, bringing Nginx modules on Debian up to date, writing detailed technical documentation, etc., so the whole MediaWiki community will benefit from these things as well as a side-effect. [[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 10:41, 29 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
:::You are simultaneously saying you undervalue your work while suggesting you make money off the work of others (which is what a community wiki is all about). This is exactly why people hated Fextralife and loved this placen it felt like an actual proper place, by the people for the people. | |||
:::it starts at ads first, but what then? What happens after that, with no notice, no polls anything? We have no guarentee it stops there. You want your full time job to consist of this wiki, and the 90% content of volunteer contributors (likely an exaggeration, but I doubt by much. Most of it is still community volunteer work) | |||
:::You haven't done much to convince me that this choice wasn't made out of greed. Using your logic, I can claim that I should be paid each time someone looks at a page I had initially created, even if the bulk of the current iteration is provided by other people. That is essentially what you are trying to tell me you are doing, which I, and seemingly several other people, do not agree with. | |||
:::I think the most important part here is broken trust. The issue of broken promises, like you have done here, is a loss of trust. Right now, it's ads. Unintrusive, but ads nonetheless. But what then? Intrusive ads? Autoplaying ads? An eventual devolvement into the same state as Fandom and Fextralife? You can tell us all the time that this won't happen, but we can no longer trust you when you say this is where it'll end. That's what this is about; user trust. Anyone who's been here long enough to contribute meaningfully have been directly betrayed by this new development, as it feels like a bait and switch, and we no longer have any idea if it'll be the first. | |||
:::Out of all the posts here, only one is positive and giving you consent. Outwardly, nobody agrees with this development either. | |||
:::The important thing is this: It's not that we don't want to trust you. We literally can't. [[User:Schism|Schism]] ([[User talk:Schism|talk]]) 16:58, 29 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
::::OK, I should have probably said the following earlier; I tend to forget whom I've given which details already and who doesn't know yet: | |||
::::<br> | |||
::::There's going to be over 100 people who are going to be paid with the money that comes in. Including you BTW. (But it may not be that much, because it depends on activity level.) The majority of these people aren't even active anymore. In the coming months, it looks like I'm going to be running after people I don't have any contact with anymore just so I can throw money at them, purely because I'm trying to do this fairly. About 60% of the money is planned to be redistributed, if not more; I just need to make sure I can cover business expenses and have a good salary and the rest is for the community. (I'm in the process of writing a new announcement that includes these details and sort of forgot that most people don't know yet.) | |||
::::<br> | |||
::::Here's my suggestion: Since all content on the wiki is licensed under CC licenses, it can literally all be copied over to another domain without any legal problems. If the wiki really goes south like you fear, you can just do that. Once I start working on wiki stuff full-time, I'll even make this easier for others to do, because I'll be writing a ton of documentation and uploading the whole configuration publicly, since I'm a big fan of Free Software principles. I've been meaning to do it forever and simply didn't have the time. [[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 18:17, 29 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
:::::You're ignoring the biggest issue here. Because of you breaking trust with ads in the first place, we absolutely can not trust you will actually do this until it happens. We can't trust you when you say that, for the rest of this site's lifetime, ads will be able to be circumvented while having an account, you won't attempt to circumvent adblock, etc. | |||
:::::If it does go south like I fear, that will likely happen. I hope it doesn't, but I'm not able to trust your word right now. We'll see. | |||
:::::For the sake of the community, I won't raise too much of a stink about it, but I'll remain an advocate against ads - because I felt like that was a LARGE chunk of the reason as to why this particular wiki exists in the first place. [[User:Schism|Schism]] ([[User talk:Schism|talk]]) 00:17, 30 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
::::I agree. They are claiming that there has been a majority of positive support for this huge move to monetization but I just do not see this claim at all. Both here and Reddit has been very controversial and mixed. Maybe I am not seeing elsewhere and would like to be wrong. I support the idea of someone making money off of their work but in this case it is way too messy and far too soon due to BG3's popularity and continued high level of players. | |||
::::I used to edit wikis all the time when I was younger and to think I'd have been caught up in this web of uncertain promises (and sadly, already broken ones) would not be OK with me. | |||
::::There's nothing to be done as they made up their mind but the way it's been handled has been really off. [[Special:Contributions/163.53.145.5|163.53.145.5]] 14:46, 30 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
:::::Adding that I very much want to support this and want to be proven wrong. I wish Taylan all the best. [[Special:Contributions/163.53.145.5|163.53.145.5]] 14:50, 30 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
::::::Thank you for the good wishes. I just double-checked the initial Reddit announcement to make sure I'm not dreaming. Let me nerd over the numbers a bit. (Intention isn't to be argumentative or "prove you wrong," I'm just making sure that I look at it objectively and not fooling myself.) | |||
::::::* I read the top comment with 561 upvotes as being supportive, just cautioning me about pitfalls. | |||
::::::* The second one with 460 upvotes is also supportive, conditional on the ads not being intrusive. | |||
::::::* Same with the third, with 112 upvotes. | |||
::::::* Fourth with 109 upvotes expresses that the person is conflicted, but they then reply to themselves clarifying that they'll continue contributing to the wiki either way. | |||
::::::* Fifth with 46 is supportive. | |||
::::::* Sixth with 42 says it would be OK on the condition that the ads aren't intrusive. | |||
::::::* Seventh with 39 reads as conflicted, but not outright critical of the decision. ("wouldn't begrudge you") | |||
::::::* Eighth with 33 could be read as the first one that's directly critical. | |||
::::::So, the supportive comments seem to outweigh the critical ones by a factor of >10x in upvotes. I'm not going to count the number of supportive vs. critical comments (disregarding upvotes) but I don't think that's necessary, because it can create a false impression due to the common phenomenon that critical people are more likely to raise a voice. From a quick scroll-through, it still looks like a clear majority that are accepting/supportive though. | |||
::::::<br> | |||
::::::So, my impression has been that the overwhelming majority of the BG3 community at large are either explicitly, or silently, supportive or accepting. Maybe I should use the word "accepting" rather than "supportive" to be more accurate. (Of course, few people would outright say "yes, definitely put up ads." Nobody loves ads. There actually have been a handful of people who said it though, not because they love ads but because they say "you deserve it.") Please tell me if you think I'm missing something significant. | |||
::::::<br> | |||
::::::It's been a bit more mixed among those who have been, or still are, very active as contributors. I value their opinion greatly and am trying to make sure I don't disappoint them. | |||
::::::<br> | |||
::::::A few who are critical may not be aware just how much financial security this is going to provide me. Maybe some even think I'm rich and just greedy for more, I don't know. The thing is: Although I'm not going to write sob stories because I know there's lots of people in the world who have it a lot worse than me, there's still a middle-point between "struggling so bad you may end up starving on the streets" and "being rich and never having to worry about money." I sit somewhere between those extremes, have mild financial anxiety every once in a while, and could ''really'' use the ease of mind I'm going to get from this. I don't have too big a safety net to rely on if some things go bad in life (unexpected health issues etc.); instead, I actually have family members with health issues who financially depend on me, permanently. | |||
::::::<br> | |||
::::::Some may also not be aware just how much money I'm intending to redistribute... Maybe they think I'll send the top contributors a few hundred bucks and leave it at that. The problem with this one is that I simply can't make any promises before the money actually starts to come in, but the forecasts are ''extremely'' good. A lot of people probably don't understand that I'll actually be able to redistribute a ''ton'' of money, and still have enough left for really solid financial security, because it all sounds too good to be true. I would advise people to look a little into how much money high-quality ads can apparently bring per one million page views, and consider that we have about 40 million page views per month. I'm still somewhat in disbelief myself, but it's looking more and more legit as I research it. | |||
::::::<br> | |||
::::::As for the skepticism regarding whether the site will remain clean: Sure, I get it. If you don't know me very well, I guess it makes sense from your perspective. I don't know if there's anything I can do to convince people? I have average CHA at best and I probably don't even have proficiency in persuasion, so I guess all I can say is wait and see. | |||
::::::<br> | |||
::::::Sorry, this turned into a wall of text... I do genuinely care about people's opinions though. [[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 17:04, 30 July 2024 (CEST) | |||
:::::::I will say I don't think Reddit upvotes are a reliable metric of measurement, as reddit doesn't show you the amount of downvotes a post or comment gets unless the response is overwhelmingly negative. Reddit does this on purpose so it can filter out bots, and keep them from knowing they're shadowbanned. The real total is fuzzed for this reason. Basically, they're intentionally unreliable. | |||
:::::::I'll leave my main arguments here, since I've said my piece, and I'll likely limit my responses to answering questions, and providing other information rather than opinions, but one thing I'll give you credit for is providing a space for us all to talk about this. I'll be keeping an eye on things to see how this all works, and see how this distribution will go. If you keep to your word and pay contributors (not even me, I don't care too horrifically much, just that at least the top contributors are paid) then there'll be some trust back, but unfortunately due to the situation, there won't ever be 100% trust anymore, and I feel that's something to keep in mind.[[User:Schism|Schism]] ([[User talk:Schism|talk]]) 04:57, 1 August 2024 (CEST) | |||
:::::::I appreciate that you actually took time to reply to me with a counter argument. Cheers [[Special:Contributions/163.53.145.5|163.53.145.5]] 16:31, 3 August 2024 (CEST) | |||
== Legal == | |||
Is it even legal to turn serve ads through this website? The wiki uses screenshots from the game. By serving ads the wiki turns into a commercial project. Based on the BG3 TOS you are not allowed to use the IP in commercial use without the explicit permission from larian. | |||
Do you have that? When writing now wiki entries do I need to take that into account? [[Special:Contributions/93.236.205.159|93.236.205.159]] 09:08, 10 October 2024 (CEST) | |||
:Hi. Yes, of course it's legal. :-) | |||
:Standard disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and can't give you legal advice. | |||
:Consider all the wikis, news sites, blogs, YouTube videos etc. out there which use screenshots, icons, gameplay footage and so on from not only video games but also movies, TV series, comics, and other such media. My understanding is that "fair use" covers these all. | |||
:As far as ads on wikis go, what bg3.wiki is now doing is exactly the same as what Fandom, Wiki.gg, Fextralife and others have been doing forever. This wiki is just a single independent one as opposed to wiki farms like the others, since it started out as a non-profit hobby project. (And I'd argue that I'm more focused on ensuring quality over all, though wiki.gg doesn't seem bad either on that front.) [[User:Taylan|Taylan]] ([[User talk:Taylan|talk]]) 12:07, 10 October 2024 (CEST) | |||