Talk:Astarion/Romance

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What was the need to pool all the descriptions into one heap back as it was before?? The article was meant to be structured. There's no need to write how many bites A. does to turn Tav into a spawn, but it's much more important to show how he really treats them. If wanted to make it 'more neutral', please just delete only **adjectives** one doesn't like Arikel (talk)

If anyone wants to make a mess of another's work, use <!- --> comments tags on what they do not like and discuss it here. Prove your point instead of one-click spoiling other's long hours of painstaking work 17:46, 17 July 2024 (CEST)

The wiki isn't intended to be your personal diary.

You are editing this to have a TON of information with language that is personal to you. A wiki is intended to be neutral. Player dialogue options are a choice. Your personal feelings are not relevant to the information that goes onto a wiki page.

How you feel as though your character is treated by the companion is PERSONAL to YOU. That is not what a wiki is for. That is what your therapist is for. LoreBard (talk) 22:11, 17 July 2024 (CEST)

That's all not about how I (or anyone else) feel(s) about what's happening within the game.

The point is that in-game decisions are made by the player. Saying that some of them are good or bad IS personal, indeed. BUT the ways one in-game character treat another in-game character AFTER the player's done their choice are defined by the gamecode and are the same no matter who is tapping the buttons, therefore, they are NOT personal and definitely worth describing.

As it goes, providing the player with maximum info about all possible outcomes, which in the same circumstances would be the same regardless of who is playing (and writing about) is the very point of creating an encyclopaedia. Small details of characters' behaviour are crucial to mention, too, because they help to describe thoroughly the image of a certain companion. Making it all structured and providing proofs like quotes, screenshots, etc. is a demand of wiki style editing.

On the contrary, clogging the text with unnecessary details that impact nothing in the gameplay and cannot change further player's decisions (like telling the precise amount of bites or inserting links to FRwiki article stub which was derived from this very wiki) makes the article messy, same as deleting the article structure only to make it "compact". Shakespeare's 'brevity is the soul of wit' cannot be applied to the detriment of readers.

A responsible author should refer to other long-read articles (not only those they contribute to) as an example if they doubt the necessity of extra detailing, especially if certain part of an article seems to be their one and only contribution to a giant and complex wiki, or create a personal Sandbox page.

Summarising, trying to evade any evaluative and conjecture statements is not the reason to delete 'TONS' of useful (fact-checked and verified by different sources) info and ruin the consistent article, returning it to the state of a stub it once had been

If you do not agree with any statement within the article, please do honours to correct the language and typos, pick better words to tell it down, but do not delete on a whim a whole passages of verified facts that persist in the game plot regardless of anyone's opinion on them. Arikel (talk) 06:15, 18 July 2024 (CEST)

Just came across this page.

You say in your comment that it is "verified facts that persist in the game plot regardless of opinion"

Can you show me the verified facts to match this

"Successful check will reveal that as Ascendant, he considers even his beloved one belonging to the lower order of creatures and shall ever treat them accordingly"

Are there any other dialogue options than this?

"He will also express his newfound feeling of all-permissiveness, especially if the player rejected his offer to become a spawn" I am also not clear on what "all-permissiveness" means in this context. Permissiveness meaning freedom of behaviour.

It is also clear from the language choices you make when describing the options what your preferred route is in the game. In your description of the epilogue you state "If the player sucks up to him". Do you not consider the player to be sucking up to Unascended Astarion too? Would more neutral language for the players choices not be more suitable here? Or are you saying any player who is on board with Ascended Astarion is "sucking up to him"

With regard to the epilogue text, you may want to clarify that the player has also been assiduously spinning the web of political power if that is what they choose in the pre-party bedroom scene.

And that Ascended Astarion expresses to the player that "We do turn every head in the room when we enter, and rightly so" and that "Together we are unstoppable, so heavens help the fool that comes against us"

You state that Ascended Astarion "will express ultimate arrogance and sense of superiority over all former companions, player character included."

Can you provide the dialogue option for this, specifically the last part of the sentence. Telchin (talk) 22:05, 18 July 2024 (CEST)

I see the support squad comes on the stage. Don't you tell me you stumbled on a hidden comment page to an inner subdivision of a major article, picking it out of a sudden; especially that being your only contribute to more-than-thousand-page wiki. Okay, let's go through your questions one by one

"Successful check <...>

Are there any other dialogue options than this?

-- This one comes clear from the formulation of a successful Wisdom check

He will always see you as degrading yourself if you continue to be with him. But perhaps you wish to degrade yourself, and he knows it.

As all I meant here is the formulation of the check itself, why do you ask about other dialogue lines, but okay.

If Tav initially says they want to be a vampire 'like him', Astarion answers 'there are no vampires like me and never will be again'. Later within cutscene, if Tav refuses him, he says they will never find anyone other like him, while he surely will succeed with the same task. Assuming all this, he's aware and sure of his exclusiveness, therefore, all others are at least one step lower by default.

"He will also express his newfound<...>

-- The proof-example line for this is provided in the according note 8 below. He actually says that he could have forced Tav into becoming a spawn, just on a whim. Meaning, he feels that nothing is able to restrain him anymore, ever.

It is also clear from the language choices<...>

-- I have several fully-finished walkthroughs with all possible outcomes of relations with most companions, Astarion included, but that's not the case here. Some romantic lines in the game are much more easier to fulfil than others, that's all. However, this is the only point I could somewhat agree, because for instance the correct phrase here should be not 'the player', but 'the player character'. Spawn-Tav's lines in the epilogue show that they literally hang on his words (if this formula suits you better) - for all his obvious arrogance and probable cruelty, this Tav almost loses an ability to think over their relations critically. As for non-Ascended and partnered Astarion, he tells the character (the next morning after rite) that he now sees them 'as a partner, an equal', so there's no need in sucking up.

With regard to the epilogue text<...>

-- If the player broke up with Ascendant, there won't be any pre-party bedroom scene. If they didn't, Astarion does ask what they would like to do first, but makes it clear that it will be him who pulls the strings, while the player character is the one he willingly shares his conquests with, still the second number, always. They will never be an independent power player while remaining aside him.

The answers he awaits are 'True, we are spectacular'/'None will dare, my love' (as all other lines are not actually answers to his words, they push the dialogue further). If the player asks back about them 'flourishing', it opens dialogue options to express further doubt and get an angry reproach from him in response.

You state that Ascended <...>

-- At the Epilogue party, after spawn-partner speaks with at least one former companion and return to Astarion, he will ask "So, how have our dear friends been without us to guide and protect them?". Next he will say that he expected them all to be "half-dead in the muck" (with some variations depending on previous line choice). Is that not enough arrogant for you? As for last statement, in the epilogue he says that they 'complete him', but 'he's always watching' - he does not see them as an independent person, too, but instead one that needs to be totally controlled.

I hope you're contented. Hate to waste words on obvious things, really, especially to those who 'just came across', but now have at once a billion of precise questions that give away their pretendedness. Arikel (talk) 23:50, 18 July 2024 (CEST)

Yet, I still don't see you pulling out any *actual, in-game* sources for any of what you're claiming. You're still phrasing everything through the lens of how it makes YOU *feel* rather than actually quoting or citing *actual information*.

"There's no need to suck-up."

"Is that not arrogant for you?"

These are your opinions. This is how you, as an individual, feel about these topics. You can't possibly think it's acceptable to write essay after essay based exclusively on the negative dialogue options (ignoring the positive and neutral options) and feel as though that's not biased? If you think only one set of dialogue options exist as "the one truth" then you shouldn't be updating the wiki for a story with a multi-branching narrative. This suggests that you lack the ability to understand how that story telling works whilst also lacking the self-awareness to acknowledge your own biases. Some of what you've written, well, you're just lying. I know this for a fact because I have extracted the dialogue files from the modding tools, I didn't just randomly watch YouTube videos. Some other things you've written aren't relevant to the romance at all and instead are related to the companion quest.

If you want to ramble about your personal feelings and headcanons, there's tumblr for that. LoreBard (talk) 06:26, 19 July 2024 (CEST)